Hugh Murray
According to the 1888 History of Washington County Missouri [1], my great grandfather, Hugh Murray, “was born in County Down, Ireland, December 18, 1839 [i]. His father, Michael Murray, also a native of Ireland, was a farmer by occupation; he married Catherine Murray, a native of the same place, and they had ten children, five sons and five daughters.”
Question
Where was Michael Murray’s farm in County Down?
Background
1. According to Hugh’s biographical sketch in the 1888 county history, “Murray” was the surname of Hugh’s father, Michael, and the maiden surname of Hugh’s mother, Catherine.
2. This Murray family was Roman Catholic.
3. Hugh is remembered as having had a twin who remained in Ireland [2].
Roman Catholic Parish Registers
A search for Hugh Murray, born between 1835 – 1839 to Michael and Catherine Murray, in the birth and baptism database [ii] for County Down at the Ulster Historical Foundation (UHF) [3], results in only one transcribed record [iii]:
Name: Hugh Murray
Birth or baptismal date: 08 December 1838
Parents first name & surname: Michael Murray & Catherine Murray
Parish: Saintfield
Transcriptions of the Catholic Parish registers for Ireland form the content for the UHF baptism database. Page images of the registers themselves are online at the National Library of Ireland (NLI). The images are browse-able (but not searchable) by parish. The RC Parish of Saintfield and Carrickmannon (variant forms: Saintfield, Carrickmannon) is in the RC Diocese of Down and Connor. The online register for this parish includes:
Baptisms: 01 Oct. 1837 to 08 Jan. 1881;
and
Marriages: 18 Oct. 1845 to 18 July 1883.
The baptism register has entries for Hugh Murray and his twin, Daniel Murray, baptized 08 December 1838 [4]. Their parents are Michael Murray and Catherine Murray.
Civil Parishes & Townlands
County Down includes 70 civil parishes (including Saintfield), which generally conformed to the ecclesiastical parishes of the Church of Ireland when they were created. Civil parishes are further divided into townlands. Knowing the townland and civil parish of an ancestor is critical to genealogical research in Ireland.
The four entries in the parish register image above include “B M” after the parents’ names. This is a notation of the townland in which the parents resided, in this case, Barnamaghery. (In addition to BM, other spelling variants in the parish register include, Barneymaghery and B Maghery.) Barnamaghery is in the civil parish of Killinchy – not the civil parish of Saintfield, as might be assumed from the Ulster Historical Society database of births and baptisms.
So, while Hugh Murray was baptized in the Catholic Parish of Carrickmannon and Saintfield, the baptismal register confirms that the family resided in the townland of Barnamaghery within the civil parish of Killinchy!
Griffiths’ Valuation (of Tenements)
Because there are scarcely any census returns for Ireland available prior to 1901, the General Valuation of the Rateable Property in Ireland, often referred to as the Primary Valuation (of Tenements), or Griffith’s Valuation, is commonly used to locate 19th century Irish ancestors. Valuations of individual properties within each county were published between 1847 and 1864. County Down valuations were published in 1864. Ordnance survey maps created in the 1840’s were the basis for the valuations.
Once the townland, parish, and county where a person lived are known, Griffith’s Valuation can be used to locate the property they occupied. Ask about Ireland enables searching of Griffith’s Valuation and, in the search results, links to both images of the valuation pages and corresponding Ordnance Survey maps.
Michael Murray of Barnamaghery Township, Parish of Killinchy, is the Occupier of a tenement consisting of just over 17 acres and including a house, office, and land. In 1864 the land and buildings are valued at an annual rate of 15 Pounds, 10 Shillings. (See the last entry in the following image.)
Mapping the Tenement
The Valuation of Tenements identifies Map reference location “3” on Ordnance Survey Map 16 as Michael Murray’s farm. The boundaries of discrete properties are drawn in red on the map below.
The next map positions Michael Murray’s farm on a current map. It is located just southwest of the intersection of Carrickmannon Road and Drumreagh Road.
GPS coordinates for Michael Murray’s farm:
Latitude: 54.45934971231707 Longitude: -5.765655040740967
RC Church and Graveyard
The “RC Chapel” is marked on the 1840’s Ordnance Survey (OS) Map. On the 2017 map, this location on Carrickmannon Road is labeled “St. Joseph’s Church, Carrickmannon”, which is one of two church locations in the RC Parish of Carrickmannon and Saintfield. Perhaps because the Chapel would have been closer to the Murray farm than Immaculate Heart of Mary Church in Saintfield Town, the Murray family may have worshipped at the Chapel.
Kilrain Graveyard is also identified on the 1840’s OS map. Clarke [5] describes the graveyard as being “largely used by Roman Catholics in modern times” and “in the Catholic parish of Saintfield”. Several of the Kilrain gravestones are for Murrays [v].
Kilcairn Graveyard is approximately on the NW corner of Kilrain Road & Drumreagh Road. (GPS Coordinates: Latitude: 54.47191, Longitude: -5.75526)
[1] History of Washington County Missouri. (1888) Chicago: Goodspeed Publishing Company.
[2] Reported by Anne (Murray) Lonnemann in a conversation on 04 April 2007.
[3] Ulster Historical Foundation. Irish Birth/Baptism Records – Co. Antrim & Co. Down, c. 1660-1930 [database online]. Accessed 19 March 2017 at https://www.ancestryireland.com.
[4] National Library of Ireland. Parish of Carrickmannon and Saintfield, Microfilm 05467 / 03. Baptisms 01 Oct. 1837 to 08 Jan. 1881, page 9. Accessed 19 March 2017 at http://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000633133#page/7/mode/1up.
[5] Clarke, Richard Samuel J. (Compiler). 1984. Gravestone Inscriptions: County Down (Volume 5). Belfast: Ulster Historical Foundation.
[i] Hugh Murray’s Missouri death certificate records his birth date as 14 December 1839; however, neither 1839 date may be accurate. As a primary source, Hugh’s baptismal record carries more documentary weight and establishes Hugh’s birth date on or prior to his 08 December 1838 baptismal date. Hugh may have had a reason to change his birth date after he immigrated to the USA in 1857. For example, the naturalization process was simpler for someone who immigrated at age 18 versus age 19: According to the US National Archives “from 1824 to 1906, minor aliens who had lived in the United States 5 years before their 23rd birthday could file both their declarations and petitions at the same time”, rather than waiting three years in between these two filings.
[ii] Database covers “virtually all Roman Catholic registers of baptisms for Counties Antrim and Down prior to 1900”.
[iii] A transcribed record for Daniel Murray, Hugh’s twin, includes the same information.
[iv] Rosalind Davies states that the Old Catholic Church of Immaculate Heart of Mary in Saintfield Town is located on Main Street. She includes the following historical information about the church. (2001. Old Catholic Church, Saintfield Parish, Ros Davies’ Co. Down, Northern Ireland Family History Research Site. Accessed 20 March 2017 at http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~rosdavies/index.html.)
“Immaculate Heart of Mary Catholic Church was built in 1787 by Rev. Hugh Green. The parish priest in 1796 was Rev. William Teggart. The church measured 45 by 21 feet and had two galleries and contained seats for 300 people. The average attendance in 1837 was 150 people and the priest then was Rev. John Fitzsimmons whose salary was £35 a year. He also had charge of Killinchy chapel parish. The parish priest 1837- 1846 was Rev Richard McLogan/ McGlogan. He built the Parochial House.”
[v] Find-A-Grave includes 126 gravestone transcriptions for Kilrain Graveyard. A search for the Murray surname within the graveyard results in 55 records.
I am interested in your information on, “Mapping the Tenement – The Valuation of Tenements identifies Map reference location “3” on Ordnance Survey Map 16 as Michael Murray’s tenement. The boundaries of discrete tenements are drawn in red on the map below.” When I view the Ordnance maps at PRONI here: https://apps.spatialni.gov.uk/EduSocial/PRONIApplication/index.html there are no red reference numbers/locations noted. Where might I be able to access that bit of info?
~Vickie D.
Many apologies for not replying much sooner to your September 2017 comment to my blog post A Farmer in County Down. I hope the information below is helpful – actually, I hope you discovered an answer much sooner than now!
As to your question, I retrieved the map showing tenement boundaries using the name search interface at AskAbout Ireland.
The search results present both the tenement valuations and the corresponding survey maps. You can find the map I used with the tenement boundaries here.
I was born a short distance (in the townland of Aughnadarragh) from the Murray “Tenement” or farm as we call it locally. The family of old would undoubtedly have used the Carrickmannon Chapel which is very close to their property. And family burials would certainly be in Kilcairn graveyard (where my family burial ground is also situated).
My sincere apologies for my very delayed reply to your comment, Martie. I very much appreciate your information corroborating my own thinking in regard to the Carrickmannon Chapel and Kilcairn graveyard. I am delighted to hear from someone born near to my Murray ancestors!
Hi Kathleen,
I posted a reply but it has not shown here, I am also searching for Murray’s in the Barnamaghery and Lisinaw areas.
Sharon
The site of the Church in Saintfield shown in your first video with a graveyard adjoining is actually the Presbyterian Church. The RC Church was situated on the other side of the street just before the crossroads leading onto Todds Hill but on the map you use is not marked as a Church.
Very helpful information, Martie! Thanks very much.
Hi Kathleen and Martin,
I have Murray family also from Barnamaghery 1864 and Lisinaw in 1878, although I am having problems separating the Murray families of that area.
I cannot locate a birth certificate 0f 1855 so cannot confirm a mother of my Peter Murray born arounf 1817.
I would love to share notes and any guidance you may have.
Thank you,
Sharon
Hi Sharon:
I just saw your 10/2018 comment – sorry for the delayed reply. My great-grandfather, Hugh Murray was a twin (to Daniel) and was born in 1838. His father was named Michael Murray and his mother was Catherine (nee) Murray. They would seemingly be contemporaries of your Peter, so maybe we can work out if they are related? I too find it hard to separate the Murray families in Barnamaghery. So many of the names repeat.
I do not expect you will find a birth certificate per se for your Peter Murray. Have you checked the old parish registers? They will often list the child, his parents, and his sponsors. Here are few resources:
Roman Catholic Parish Records – National Library of Ireland
– Database includes baptisms and marriages by Catholic parish. They are not searchable; but you can browse them.
– The parish for Barnamaghery is Carrickmannon and Saintfield. The registers of baptisms start in 1837.
– I think these same records are indexed at Ancestry.com: Catholic Parish Registers, 1655-1915 Database – no images available, just transcripts
Ulster Historical Foundation
– Has births, marriages, deaths and other records for Ulster
Hi Kathleen Rose.
Hope you and yours are well. Couple of things for you to Google that I think you would enjoy, although you may already have done so. Saintfield my Saintfield. And, Saintfield a History. I have no doubt that if you have researched the records of births and marriages in the archives of Saintfield and Carrickmannon parish as I have extensively, there are some records of the Murray and Flynn families intermarrying. So its not unlikely that anyone whose ancestors come from Barnamaghery are someway distantly related. Anyway if you can find those two articles im very sure you will enjoy them.
Best wishes
Hi Martie: I did find Saintfield my Saintfield – thanks of the reference. I’ve been researching those Saintfield and Carrickmannon parish records quite a bit recently. I’ve counted 3 Murray-Flynn marriages. One marriage that is not in the records is that of Hugh Murray’s sister Mary to Banard Flynn, c. 1851. (There’s a gap in the marriage records between 1846 and 1854, as you likely know.) This couple left from Liverpool and arrived in New Orleans, LA in 1852, ages 20 and 28 respectively. They were travelling with another group of Flynns: Edward (54), Patrick (21), Edward (19), Margaret (25), and Catherine (23). From New Orleans, Banard and Mary Flynn went to St. Louis, MO and then settled in Potosi, MO, where Banard was a wagon-maker. When Hugh emigrated in 1857, he went to Potosi and lived with them for a while.
Oh forgort to include this. If you look up Connor Swail, Equestrian who has been ultra successful in his field. He is from Murray descent and probably close enough to your ancestry and from the vicinity of Hugh Murray.
I took a look – thanks.
Yes indeed Conor Swails mother is Mary Murray and their home is a very short distance from the Murray tenement. I had the pleasure of playing football in the same team as Marys brother Liam in my younger days and indeed with Laurence Swail who is Marys husband and Conors father. These Murrays are no doubt close enough relatives of yourself. It is indeed a small world.
Hi! I’m not related, but my ancestors the Dodd’s are from there in County Down. I’m looking for any information connected to:
Samuel Francis Dodds/1705/ Scotland ( traveled with William Forest) to Saintfield, County Down
married Mary Craig?
who begot
Francis Dodds/1742-52/County Down, Craignassanagh, Saintfield Parish
married Elizabeth McCracken
who begot
Samuel Dodds/ 1785 County Down
married Nancy or Agnes Duff
who begot
Francis Dodd /1826 /County Down to Brooklyn, NY
married Margaret Shields
who begot
Samuel Dodd /1854/ Brooklyn, NY
married Ellen Hocking
who begot
Walter Winfred Dodd 1876
Thank you!
Hi Debra:
You may have already checked your Dodd/s ancestors at theses free online resources. If not, perhaps you will have some luck. When I briefly looked, I found a number of Dodd/s records. (BTW: The townland for Francis Dodds may be spelled Craignasanagh (on townlands.ie). )
No Fee Services
PRONI – Public Record Office of Northern Ireland – records online through nidirect.gov.uk
AskAboutIreland – Griffiths Valuation – online askaboutireland.ie
National Archives of Ireland – https://genealogy.nationalarchives.ie/ – several online resources or the whole of Ireland pre-1922
familysearch.ie
Pay Services
rootireland.ie
Ulster Historical Foundation
Hi Kathleen, Martin and Sharon et al
I am researching Savage family from Edndariff and one of them, John Savage (farmer), married Sarah Murray from Carrickmannon.
I am unsure whether you have the record however, as they were married in St Matthews Catholic chapel in Belfast May 1st 1879.
Johns father was Edward (farmer) and Sarahs father was Patrick (farmer).
I would be happy to exchange information and details if you would like?
best wishes
Brian
Hi Brian:
Checking my ancestors whom I know of, I have no Sarah Murray or John Savage. My understanding is there are several branches of Murrays in the area of Ireland in which Carrickmannon is situated. My cousin in Ireland told me my ancestors were Preagh Murrays and indeed Preagh Hill is visible from the old family farm site.
I did look up Patrick Murray of Carrickmannon in Griffith’s Valuation and found two records. It was published in 1863. You may already be aware of this.
Thanks for commenting!
Kathleen
Here’s some more info on your great grandfather’s twin, Daniel Murray.
https://www.facebook.com/CrossgarLife/posts/3997667033616952
Thanks, Callum! You have some information that I did not have! I do have some other info regarding Daniel Murray if you are interested.
Michael Murray (married to Catherine Murray) died in 1865, so I’m not sure who the Michael Murray is who founded Murray’s hotel in 1869 nor how he was related to Daniel Murray. Could have been Daniel’s younger brother Michael or someone else. At any rate, in 1874 Daniel did apply to transfer the spirit license for the premises from a Michael Murray to himself.
Daniel and Catherine had 9 children: 6 boys and 3 girls. In addition to the 6 mentioned in the Facebook post they are: Michael Joseph (1876-1881), John Henry (1880-1956), Margaret Anna (1885-1907), and Rowland (1886-1886). I don’t think Daniel and Catherine had any grandchildren. Perhaps the two women in the picture are their daughters, Cassie and Mary Alice (Minnie).
Their eldest son James Murray married Mary Cooper in 1907, the year after his father died. The couple emigrated to the Boston area the day after their marriage and both died in Winthrop, MA. James’s mother and his two sisters, Cassie and Mary Alice (Minnie), visited him and his wife in the 1920s.
It appears that 4 of Daniel and Catherine’s children lived at the hotel most of their lives, and likely operated the business: John Henry (d. 1956), Patrick (d. 1939), Cassie (d. 1957), and Mary Alice (d. 1967). John Henry’s, Patrick’s, and Mary Alice’s occupations on their death certifications are recorded as Publican.
Thanks again for your comment and the article!
Kathleen
Hi Kathleen. My ancestor Patrick Flinn married a Margt. Murray in 1847 in Carrickmannon. Their daughter Mary Jane emigrated to New Zealand in 1869. A Patrick Flynn lived in a house in location 2 very close to your forebears location 3. I am trying to locate her two brothers (names unknown). There are no baptismal records that match. Any thoughts? Mike
Hi Mike – I’m afraid I cannot offer much of anything. I did check the valuation books at PRONI. The Patrick Flinn in house b of location 2 appears to have remained there until 1887, when a James Lavery became the occupier. You may have noticed that a Margaret Murray occupied house c, location 2. She did so until about 1890. Their landlord was Robert Moffat who married my g-grandfather Hugh Murray’s sister, Anna Murray. They lived on that farm for many years.
I checked for civil death registrations for Patrick Flinn around 1887 and Margaret Murray around 1890, but had no certain finds.
As you may have noticed, there are several marriages over the years between Flynns and Murrays in Carrickmannon and Saintfield RC parish. Another of Hugh’s sisters, Mary Murray, married Barnard Flynn there about 1852.
Do you have any additional information about your Margaret Murray or Patrick Flynn?
Kathleen
Hi Kathleen, whilst looking up Hugh Murray, my friends’ soon to be next door neighbour, I came upon this thread.
Hugh is building a new house beside his existing house at 116 Carrickmannon Road. If you do a Google search for 118 you will see where they are. Also look on Google earth. You will see how close it is to the Murray tenement. Undoubtedly related to you.
Anon